July 1, 2003

JUDICIAL ACTIVISM, CONGRESSIONAL LEGISLATION AND PRESIDENTIAL POWER Missouri Republican Todd Akin is a key advocate of the "Pledge of Allegiance Protection Act." He says the Pledge Protection Act is his top priority right now as the Supreme Court wrestles with the legal controversy surrounding the phrase, "...under God" contained in the pledge. The Ninth Circuit Court in San Francisco had previously ruled the pledge to be unconstitutional because of that phrase. More details: http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/7/12003a.asp

It is quite likely that someone someday will be reading what I have written here about my ministerial experiences at the Belgrade Church. Friend, this doesn't cover the half of it. I replaced a pastor there that had a 35 year old son living in the parsonage. He was a "out-of-the-closet" homosexual and quite queer to boot. It was obvious at first glance and after they moved out and we moved in and met the people my first observation of him turned out to be correct. Not only that, and I won't name the minister, as I was cleaning the study readying the bookshelves for my library I moved one of the shelves and a booklet dropped out from behind it. It was full of the most vile filth of pornography including homosexual, heterosexual and child pornography. I know it was the minister I'd replaced in that it was in the brown envelope addressed to him - - - and guess what, it was mailed to him from another minister in West Virginia. A note was affixed to the booklet/magazine, "What a nasty gash!" What perversion an depravity.

Now, I would rather not speak of this but facts are facts. In this church, as I told you before, there were more than 5 homosexual men active in the church. There was also a 'dike', woman lesbian Sunday school teacher. Now here I was, ready to start my new ministry in a new country. I have homosexuals -- more than I could count on my hands and feet. I have one poor chap charged and convicted of child molestation out in the open in a Sunday School class with the door open to the hall way. He is sent to prison. I have a lesbian teaching the young girls Sunday school class and as it turned out, the church had appointed her to be in charge of the summer vacation Bible School. How can a born again man, a Christian man, be a minister in a situation like that. I lasted a little more than 18 months at Belgrade. I am told that this was a recent record. The only other minister that stayed more than 18 months happened 15 years prior to that.

For some strange reason the church didn't want to pay the United Methodist Church proportioned/money to send to the Church Conference. Time has healed and thankfully taken from my memory most of the despicable situations I had to deal with while I was there.

In closing on this subject I would ask you a question: How would you like to climb into the pulpit every Sunday morning and face a homo Superior Court Judge, 5 homosexuals, a lesbian who also played the piano and a man sitting there with his small family preparing himself to turn himself in to be placed in prison for molesting a child that never/couldn't have happened? How would you do it? What would you say. I simply preached Jesus . . . And even now, I must say that not all has been said and God has allowed me some relief in that memory has left some covered in the dust of the forgotten. I just uncovered one more. Recall the man that came to me asking for my prayers and help to be able to get his two sons for visitation? Place yourself in the position of a minister when an elderly gentleman, on his death bed, pleads with me to pray for him and promise that I would see to it that any mortuary in any town no matter how far would be called when he died. For some reason the old gentleman didn't want the homosexual "queer" making his body ready for burial.

It did happen that I was forced to preform several funerals having to use that one and only funeral home in Belgrade. That was a strange experience!

I am now officially retired as of today, July 1, 2003, and am now free to write the book, "My Memories of Being a Minister of The Gospel."

Sending Flowers by wire

At 11:30 PM last evening I turned in and tuned in my radio to BBN. I always listen to the Bible Broadcasting Network all night long. Precisely at the time I turned the radio on Lewis Paul Lehman (the late) began his weekly program. It consists of a short thought provoking meditation and he ends by singing, “I wish you knew my Jesus . . . Because if . . . you would love him too.”

His meditation was about when he was a small child and how puzzled he was at the notion of sending a message by wire. Of course he referred to the then new idea of the telegraph. He was astonished, according to him, that not only could one send messages through that small wire, but one could as well send flowers. He went on about how mysterious all that was to him — to imagine how it was that one could buy a bunch of flowers and somehow they would be forced into that little wire and at the other end come out a pretty bunch of flowers in a vase. As a child he was just as inquisitive about how it could be that one could put money into the wire and somehow in some mysterious way would come out the other end.

Then he got to the heart of what this illustrates about life. There are many mysterious things about life — and even more mysterious is the thought about God. Who is he? Where is heaven? How can he know every little thing about us and knows absolutely everything we not only do but — even our thoughts. How did God create all the we know and see?

Then the point comes home: Just like the small inquisitive child had difficulty understanding how one could send flowers by wire, money by wire and even messages by wire. He related how it is with us, God’s children, we all are. Some are obedient and accept him, and others reject him. How could the blood of His son, Jesus Christ, save me?

Although this is all a bit of my remembrance of what was on his program and paraphrased to the best of my ability, what it all tells us is, “Like small children, we may not understand everything there is to know about right and wrong, but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t so. There is, according to God’s word, many things we will need to accept by faith. The key is “ACCEPT.” It really don’t matter if we believe the Bible or not. It doesn’t make it “Not So.” Just like sending flowers by wire and how difficult it is for a child to understand it all, so is salvation . . . It is all God’s way or no way.

Lewis Paul Lehman is on the radio every Sunday evening at 11:30PM EDT, USA.

I have received many eye opening illustrations from his presentations. He is no longer with us. Lewis Paul Lehman lives on — much as the Good News of Jesus Christ. Jesus is no longer physically present on this world we call home — but his Spirit is here — no regard to if you understand or believe it or not.

SCOTUS Ruling in Sodomy Case A 'Declaration of Secular Supremacy'

By Fred Jackson, Jody Brown, and Bill Fancher
June 27, 2003

(AgapePress) - Both critics and supporters of Thursday's Supreme Court ruling legalizing homosexual sex appear to agree on one thing: the decision holds the potential for far-reaching effects on the nation's culture.

Legal analysts on both sides of the debate seem to be struck by the language the six justices used in their decision. Basically, they called homosexual sex a "privacy" issue in which the government has no right to interfere. That opens the door, many argue, to legalizing just about any deviant sexual behavior.

The justices also endorsed the idea that the prevailing public opinion of the day ought to hold sway over how the Constitution is interpreted. [See Earlier Article on Court Ruling]

A variety of pro-family groups have been quick to denounce the ruling. Dr. D. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Ministries calls it a "declaration of secular supremacy" -- a decision, he says, that overturns a 3,000-year-old legal and moral tradition and one the nation will come to regret "most grievously."

Kennedy expects homosexual activists to charge forward now to demand any restrictions against them be lifted, including those regarding military service, homosexual adoption, and homosexual marriage. He also expects a major push to restrict the free-speech rights of those who oppose homosexuality.

Dr. Kennedy's ominous warning may already be approaching reality. The legal director for Lambda Legal, a homosexual advocacy group, says discrimination regarding marriage and military service will now be targeted by homosexual activists. Attorney Ruth Harlow says by "knocking out both sodomy laws and the justification of morality," the high court's decision makes it more difficult to defend "those discriminatory schemes."

Harlow tells Cybercast News Service that even though the ruling was based on the "right of privacy," it also "very strongly recognizes gay people's equal humanity" and guarantees them equal rights under the Constitution.

Judgment of God

Robert Knight of the Culture and Family Institute says the decision is just another example of the nation's courts chipping away at society's morals and values.

"It takes a lot to turn a God-fearing nation like America into Sodom, but the court seems determined to do that -- and this is a giant step in that direction. The court is basically saying Americans cannot defend themselves against the onslaught of homosexual activism, and that we all have to submit to it or be on the wrong side of the law."

Robert Knight
Knight is convinced that as a result of the court decision, children will be taught in schools that homosexual sodomy is normal and healthy, and the equivalent of marital sex.

"How can they do otherwise when the court is saying that any distinctions in the law regarding these practices are unconstitutional?" he asks. "It also will jeopardize laws against prostitution, incest, and bigamy -- because if the consent of the partners involved and the idea of privacy trumps all other considerations, I don't see how these other laws can stand."

Will America face God's judgment as a result of the decision? Knight has this response:

"I can't imagine God will be happy with America if we put homosexual sex acts on par with marital sex. God created sex for marriage and marriage only, and attempts to legitimate it outside marriage not only hurt people, but they are spitting in the face of God."

Lou Sheldon of Traditional Values Coalition says the country could very well be judged as a nation.

"If the righteous don't rise up and speak out loud and clear, then we casting ourselves against the Word of God," Sheldon says, "and woe unto that person who does that."

Many pro-family leaders are saying the ruling should galvanize Christians to become involved in the fight to save traditional families in America. Many are urging support of legislation calling for a Federal Marriage Amendment. Such legislation is currently before the U.S. House.

We could learn a lot from crayons:
some are sharp,
some are pretty,
some are dull,
some have weird names,
and all are different colors
....but they all exist very nicely
in the same box.

There are those folk that would look much better if they WERE in a box or closit!
Don't we only wish!
~~ Bob C

Articles of Right vs. Wrong:

----- Original Message -----

From: Bob Craig

To

Sent Sunday, June 15, 2003 5:17 AM

Subject Black and White Again

Hi again.

It is with a prayer that I am not becoming a bore to you. I have again come smack up against our debate of white and black, right and wrong, etc. I couldn't help but pass this bit of reasoning on to you for consideration . . .

Certainly as far as Western Civilization is concerned the three most important religions are Judaism, Islam (Mohammedanism), and Christianity. The picture is more confused toward the Far East because in those countries it is difficult to know where ''philosophy'' ends and religious belief begins. Many authorities, for example, point out that Confucianism is not in any sense a religion and only in a limited sense a philosophy. Its founder did not concern himself with God at all nor was he vitally interested in pure philosophy ‹ only in a kind of practical wisdom.

It seems desirable to make some effort at this point to distinguish between philosophy and religion. There is plenty of room for disagreement here, but I think that certain points of vital distinction can be noted to which there will be general assent. In the first place revelation is essential for religion, but for philosophy it must be rejected, human reason being the only justifiable tool. Religion is concerned with morals, philosophy with ethics: the difference between the two being essentially this, that morals have to do with man's relationship to God and ethics with man's relationship to man.

Morals are absolute, ethics are relative. If we may substitute metanature for metaphysics, we may say that the subject matter of philosophy is metanature (the subject matter of science is Nature), but the subject matter of religion is supernature. In religion, miracle is in a sense an essential adjunct, but in philosophy miracle is simply of no concern. The end object of all religion is to find God, but the end object of philosophy is to find the truth. This does not mean that religion does not have the discovery of truth as an object, but only that it is a secondary one.

http://custance.org/Library/Volume1/Part_I/Chapter3.html

Bob C

~ Craigs On The WEB

http://craigpages3.100megsfree5.com/GIFFile/CraigPages.html

----- Original Message -----

From 'friend'

To: Bob Craig

Sent Sunday, June 15, 2003 7:11 AM

Subject: Re: Black and White Again

Dear Brother Bob,

So good to hear from you again!

Yes, I did put you in the fanatacist box, after having landed there with a thud myself! The world of ideas, the sea of freedom of thought, is really scary!

And by the time I crawled out of the box, at least so I could see over the edge, I began to realize that this internet - like any other product of progress we have achieved (with God's help!) - gives us next to limitless possibilites. Perhaps just beyond what we can handle. As usual, for our use and misuse. Like guns, printing presses, medicine, books, cars, matches, birth control, teflon coating and scientific methods.

Beside the thrill of having this wonderful library at our (adult) fingertips - like a transport to outer space and back - I could feel the pull of a longing for the (childlike) Good, the drawing power of a desire not to have to think and sift and choose, just be a Good Kid and do as your Father tells you. And the sense of power - I can own all this information! I can reach all these people! I can make a difference! I can control my world! Ha.

The internet, like life itself, challenges and requires of us to be mature, while enticing our children to forget their childhood. It is such a huge step into the world that all others seem like nursery school in comparison. My daughter sits glued to the box for a couple hours a day, when she can. How do I monitor her excursions? Should I monitor? Should she monitor mine? What ridiculous questions, I begin to think. And here I sit, writing to you, taking up your time with my ramblings...

Thanks for the many links. Dealing with information inflow is now becoming a priority!

Today's Swedish newspaper (Daily News - independent) had an editorial about the fable of the wolf and the lamb. The wolf argued with the lamb until he ran out of arguments. Meanwhile, the lamb answered each argument with a simple statement of his innocence. Then the wolf ate up the lamb, tired of pretending to reason. The writer points out that the fable paints a picture of the danger but gives no advice to the lamb on how to deal with the wolf, what stance to take, how to avoid losing his/her lamb identity in the threatening situation. Be eaten up? Flee? Become wolf-like? Stand by and watch? How does democracy survive dictatorship?

When I was 21, I met a very kind Jewish lawyer who worked for the Civil Liberties Union in his spare time. He defended the rights of Nazi demonstrators! He asked me one day: "If you had to choose one of these three, which would you choose - to be a spectator at the Colosseum in Rome, to be a gladiator or to be a Christian facing the lions?"

Everything in our world - news media, the internet, politics, sports, economics, culture - seems to be involved in a tug-of-war: "Wake up!" says the one side, appalled at the wolves in disguise. "Go back to sleep, everything's just fine, justice will prevail, we will take care of the bad guys, the Lord will provide, inshalla..." say the wolves and the hyenas. If I try to follow my own reasoning, I guess there ought to be a third alternative: "Stay awake. Be not afraid. Rest when you need to. Do my Father's will, as long as you can. Ask for whatever you need." says the Christ.

To reply to your thoughts below:

I didn't find any Buddha there, or HINDUS. The BUDDHISTS seem to me be a kind of bridge between the philosophists and the religious. As I think the Hebrews were a bridge away from the older, human-sacrifice cults in Mesopotamia towards something new, a new way of looking at people.

Islam I haven't figured out at all yet. The Egyptians came from the west with a different attitude altogether, how did Islam change them? And the many African and American religions - now almost wiped out by Christianity or decadence - also had very different religious flavors. No doubt America and Great Britain have huge roles to play these days - but we here in Europe feel the need to stand back a bit and wonder what the other players were/are/will be doing in the background.

Back to our traditions, Jesus introduced a totally new stage as well, which partially contradicts (transforms?) the Old Testament posture. I met a Christian arab teacher from Lebanon in a school I taught in. He told me how astounded some of the children had been when (Christian) teachers served and helped them, rather than being their strict taskmasters. Just opening the door for the kids was a very big deal.

Thanks for the morals/ethics distinction. That has been a good help!

As to finding God vs. finding the truth, that was also good. The search for truth is a good step along the way to finding God, although (at least temporarily) perhaps depending a lot on where and how you conduct the search. If in the end finding the truth cannot but help encompass God, because God is, then (the illusion of) difference would disappear. But perhaps the illusion is also a necessary wake-up call.

On the other hand, finding God may also be a necessary step along the way to learning to BE God (-like?) - if we are created in His image, if I and the Father are one, if not me but Christ within me. Deep down inside, in that truthful, childish place within, I have a strong sense that the paths that lead to God lead to life for all, grace for all. But I know that along the way there are actually other paths, which I don't know how to deal with and perhaps cannot even recognize. Do you? From personal experience? Can a man or a woman, in a particular time and place, recognize what is right and what is wrong, or even begin to comprehend the difference? I know Job thought so, but I suspect the answer he was given changed his mind.

In Algeria, some teenage boys blamed a group of "ill-clad" girls walking down the street for God's wrath, shown by the recent earthquake, and a number of women are beginning to think that changing their clothing will be an important and necessary step in the right direction towards placating their angry God, according to today's newspaper. My thoughts, too - perhaps a typically feminine perspective? - lead towards finding paths of goodness in daily life. When you get that concrete, living becomes impossible without prayerful meditation.

Time to make lunch.

Blessings on your days

----- Original Message -----

From Bob Craig

To ‘Friend'

Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 5:17 AM

Subject Black and White Again

Hi again.

It is with a prayer that I am not becoming a bore to you. I have again come smack up against our debate of white and black, right and wrong, etc. I couldn't help but pass this bit of reasoning on to you for consideration . . .

Certainly as far as Western Civilization is concerned the three most important religions are Judaism, Islam (Mohammedanism), and Christianity. The picture is more confused toward the Far East because in those countries it is difficult to know where ''philosophy'' ends and religious belief begins. Many authorities, for example, point out that Confucianism is not in any sense a religion and only in a limited sense a philosophy. Its founder did not concern himself with God at all nor was he vitally interested in pure philosophy ‹ only in a kind of practical wisdom. It seems desirable to make some effort at this point to distinguish between philosophy and religion. There is plenty of room for disagreement here, but I think that certain points of vital distinction can be noted to which there will be general assent. In the first place revelation is essential for religion, but for philosophy it must be rejected, human reason being the only justifiable tool. Religion is concerned with morals, philosophy with ethics: the difference between the two being essentially this, that morals have to do with man's relationship to God and ethics with man's relationship to man. Morals are absolute, ethics are relative. If we may substitute metanature for metaphysics, we may say that the subject matter of philosophy is metanature (the subject matter of science is Nature), but the subject matter of religion is supernature. In religion, miracle is in a sense an essential adjunct, but in philosophy miracle is simply of no concern. The end object of all religion is to find God, but the end object of philosophy is to find the truth. This does not mean that religion does not have the discovery of truth as an object, but only that it is a secondary one. http://custance.org/Library/Volume1/Part_I/Chapter3.html

Hello again, ‘friend' . . .

No, I wasn't forgetting your E-mail attached here. It was so deep, your words, that I had to put some time in it and the study I was involved with -- Sons of Noah.

I have to say that my mind feels like the ball used in "hand-ball (?)" -- back and forth, up against one wall and then another. As I reflected on that ever so detailed study it became my desire to write in as simple of terms as possible where I come out on the other side :-)

I will briefly as possible, in a sentence or two summarize what I got from the sons of Noah. There was a son/tribe/group of people that went off with only self preservation in mind. In time, or at the same time, another group/son/tribe went out with a philosophical mind set and over-ran the first group/tribe/son. Bringing up the rear is those that were closer to "truth" as their ideal. They overwhelmed/conquered/took-over and Walla, we have the great industrial revolution that has/is becoming a world wide phenomena.

I spoke of a trilogy of problems that were encompassed when we bring into the mix the three sons of Noah that were made up of three different ideals. However, no matter how one looks at it, it comes down to truth (God). If you find individuals that are only concerned with their own personal welfare you leave out truth and have tribal mob rule. If you fall back to only philosophical reasoning you are only one step up on the food chain and it all comes down to argument. One's PERSONAL opinion as opposed to ANOTHER'S PERSONAL opinion which mostly disregards truth (God). When Moses was given the 10 commandments (not suggestions) Truth then became an obsession. We can only, as humans, do or think in a finite way. When the infinite is brought into the equation there can only be truth. When one decides to bring thought in between what is considered absolute 'right' or 'wrong' you have regressed back to the second son/tribe/group of Noah's decedents. In other words, philosophy has to be the guide if you are going to dismiss the absolute of right verses wrong, black or white, salt or pepper. America today in decline, . . . indeed, only catching up with the rest of the world in its decadence and bent toward self destruction. There is no longer right or wrong. The is the religion of relevance. If there is a murder, everyone looks to what relevant circumstances made the person do the killing. It is no longer wrong to kill if there is a relative reason behind the despicable act, murder, robbery, sexual aversion or whatever . . . We ask, "What was it in that individual's life experience that led him/her to such a state so as to commit the crime. The crime is no longer evil. Some even find ways to tag some crime as good -- relevant to the situation.

So . . . (?) here I am . . . much in the same position as I was when we first stepped forth on such an adventure. There is simply no way for me to understand life, considering the Biblical principles I lean on, other than Black and White. It is either right, or it is wrong. There are not degrees to either. It is like it has been said, there is no such thing as being a little bit pregnant. One is either or . . .

Our children today are in jeopardy because of our weak kneed understanding of what is simply right or wrong.

Now, admittedly, being a finite individual there is no way for me to aspire to the position of being absolutely right all the time -- about everything. That is where the infinite stepped in and provided a way of escape of this horrid situation we humans find ourselves in. The cross of Christ created a crossing that bridged the gap between our wrong and the truth of God's right***eousness. Therefore, we must aspire to the fact that when God says "Don't eat that apple, no matter what Eve says . . ., just don't eat it!", and the fact that we have ALREADY eaten it, the cross is there for us to cross over. All have sinned says the Scripture. Therefore we are all wrong in God's sight. God cannot look upon wrong but His Son had done what was necessary to provide us a way to be right. We find no way to, say, accept part of the cross . . . say, go half way across that bridge between our wrong and God's right and then find our own way from there. We either accept it or reject it.

I am back in that "fanaticism box,," and quite frankly, am breathing a bit better.

I will conclude this thought today with this: If there is something other than right and wrong, who decides what that something would be? A philosopher? A self-preservists? God? I am afraid that it will be the latter. I shall endeavor to live with that perspective in mind and if I am wrong, I will be in great shape as I prepare to "cross Jordan." If I am right and have accepted Christ's way of escape I will be, as well, in great shape.

I shall look forward with intense interest to receive your thoughts.

God's Blessings to you!

Bob C

~Craigs On The WEB

http://members.cox.net/rcraig5/CraigPages.html

---

Each day brings on a new expansion of thought to those open to development. Dear Friend,

In my most recent of study (Can't put the thing down) I have found that my reasoning has been frozen in the past. In reading the "Doorway Papers" by Arthur Custance at http://custance.org/Library/Volume1/Part_I/Chapter4.html . I strongly recommend reading this.

I have been of recent attracted to the two ways, right and wrong, black and white, etc. This has been for encouragement of thought. However, in deep thought about it all I have come across a new view of life. That of thoughts and teaching by Arthur Custance. In his paper, Doorway Papers, I have broadened my limited views to encompasses a trilogy of human influences that would open the doorway to a completely new horizon of though multiplied by three times three by the two. In order for this to be considered the complete reading of the above mentioned paper will be necessary. Further, there can for example be a right and wrong in any of the three of threes.

Let me know how this works out.

Best of all!

Bob Craig

~Craigs On The WEB

http://members.cox.net/rcraig5/CraigPages.html

---

Again, in my studies I have come across something that may explain the East as you queried before:

A few years ago, the Rev. Eric F. Bishop from the Newman School of Missions (Mount Tabor, Jerusalem) remarked regarding the Wise Men: (9)

Very few people have given much thought to Arabia as the home of the Magi, even though the Jewish magician whom Paul met in Cyprus (Acts 13:6-8) actually had an Arabic name ‹ Elymas. . . . Furthermore, the world's supply of incense comes from Southern Arabia and it is generally admitted that the best incense comes from Somaliland . . People coming from Arabia could not be described as coming "from the East," some will argue.There are certain things that may be said in reply. First, several commentators take the phrase "from the East" with the noun rather than the verb. It was "Wise Men from the East" who came to Jerusalem, i.e., Oriental astrologers.

The discussion goes on at the URL here:

http://custance.org/Library/Volume1/Part_I/Chapter1.html#Page2

Bob C

~Craigs On The WEB

http://members.cox.net/rcraig5/CraigPages.html

Hello 'friend'

Great to hear from you. Beginning to think you'd put me in the box with the fanatics ;-)

I ran across an old, old nemeses the other evening. Quite interesting his synopsis . . .

Moses and how he got Israel across the Red (Reed, or whatever) has caused many to argue and conspire ever since the happening. I guess it comes down to, "Did God do it through him, by him (Moses or the rod) or in spite of him." God being God could have caused the sea to open any way he wanted to. I am satisfied, after touring the area personally, that it was a miracle, one way or the other. If it happened through an earthquake, tidal-wave, or whatever -- just think of the possibilities of it happening at just the moment when it was most needed.

Again, the item I came upon as I spoke of above, http://www.wonderfulworldtomorrow.org/publications.html , something to think about. It goes with ancestry and geography.

Below \|/ you have posed something quite worthy of study. That I shall do. I'll check the Discovery Channel thing out. Would really love to see it. At the break neck speed things are occurring today there are more possibilities than there are solutions. History seems to be getting ahead of prophecy. It all fascinates me. However, over the years I have heard so many variations and revisions to Biblical themes that I have to say -- The Bible somehow seems to be one step ahead of it all.

Another teaching concerning the parting of the waters is that the clay banks occasionally are eroded enough to cause a collapse and that is what happened. Duke teaches that the Red Sea was actually the Reed Sea and it was during a drought that was occurring at the time, the tide was out and they slipped through at low tide. Again, God may smile our way once in a while don't you think?

I ran across this spot the other day and intended to send it to you. Some of the links are old and no longer active but there are a lot of sources and various theories bounced around.

http://geocities.com/revelationofjohn/archlist.html

Regards, Bob C

----- Original Message -----

From 'friend'

To Robert Craig

Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 12:29 PM

Subject: Discovery program about Moses

Hello Robert,

Just wanted to let you know that I just saw a fantastic BBC program today, made for Discovery Channel and called Who Was Moses? or something like that. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to take notes, so I may have some details wrong.

Among other things, it showed recent discoveries that lead support to the theory I read about 15 or 20 years ago, that the parting of the "Reed" Sea between Egypt and Israel was caused by a tidal wave from the volcanic eruption of the island Santorini around 1500 BC. They have also found pumice stone in high places (300 meters high, meaning it had to be carried there or it was washed up, perhaps by a high tidal wave?) on Crete and in Egypt. The Egyptian pumice came from Santorini. The recent eruption (in 1940) of Santorini was said to have been up to 5,000 times weaker than the one in the 1500's, and the film showed a Greek fisherman who told how the tidal wave went out and bared the whole sea bottom of the harbour for about 15 minutes during the night, before it crashed in again with 10 feet? (or was it 10 meter?) high waves. They watched all the fish thrashing on the seabed, but realized there was no point in trying to get them, as they feared all the water returning would drown them.

The film also showed the remeains of a stable with places for some 500 chariots and chariot artefacts which have been found there, in a recent archaelogical dig.

They found a written record in Luxor (which I believe they found last year) from the 1500's (1548? BC) which described the volcano event.

They showed and interviewed the Italian professor that we read about and Mount Karkom, although the altar, living sites and the pillars there predated the Santorini volcano by 500 years, somewhat hard to explain. They showed a ten-square stone carving that could have been a symbol of the ten commandments tablet.

Just thought you might like to know - and maybe check out Discovery and see this very good documentary.

Best greetings

Your friend

PS My mother is doing as well as can be expected. No taste, teeth don't fit, it's hard for her to eat anything, and so she's skinny as a skeleton. No entertainment or activity except TV, occasional visits and the helpers who come 2 x 15 min/day. I gave her a permanent, washed and groomed her feet, fixed her a better mattress. And read her English and American poetry, much of which she remembered from grade school! What a treasure... Thanatopsis was one of her favorites, especially the end.

~Craigs On The WEB

http://members.cox.net/rcraig5/CraigPages.html

---

Dear Robert,

Thanks for your note! I hope you won't mind my sharing some thoughts about why your site interested me.

I am doing a paper on Job for a course (part-time studies) at the anthroposophical college (Rudolf Steiner seminar) in Järna, in Sweden. (You may have heard of Waldorf schools, they are connected.) The course is called The Art of the Word - where the concept of word is considered in the ordinary sense as well as in a spiritual sense - perhaps not as Jesus-oriented as you are used to, but still profoundly Christ-centered. We study poetry and prose and keep ourselves open for deeper meanings in the experiences/motifs of the authors, as well as the sounds they use.

I also do quite a bit of genealogy in my free time, with ancestors from Sweden (Enquist and Wall), England (Griggs, Hucker and Franklin) and Scotland (Thomson). I grew up in Wheaton, Illinois (I was not connected to the college that Billy Graham made famous, except for my brother having worked in the cafeteria there in high school. Not connected to the Theosophical Society, which apparently has headquarters in Wheaton, either. I was confirmed at the Lutheran church in Glen Ellyn, just west of Wheaton.) When I am not studying, doing genealogy, or spending time with husband and daughter, I work as a speech and language pathologist with stroke patients at a hospital outside of Stockholm.

Since last fall we have studied the major epic poems - the Illiad and the Odyssey, as well as Gilgamesh and especially the wonderful Finnish Kalevala, the nordic myths and the fierce celtic myths, among others. Putting all these together gives a fascinating view!

For my spring paper, I chose the Job story, which isn't exactly an epic poem, to say the least, but a project I have wanted to undertake for many years. I started just as you have done on your site, outlining the main story, thinking about the time frame from reference to Job's age, the origins of the friends and Elihu and so on. (But it never occurred to me that they might be ancestors rather than descendants of Abraham!) I have been to Timna and the areas near Petra, and to "paradise" in the form of Ein Gedi. I speak Hebrew (albeit as a 2nd-grader, but it's a start) having studied linguistics for 4½ years in Tel-Aviv. (It occurred to me, for instance, that Elihu is an awful lot like Eliahu, the Hebrew name for Elijah.)

My starting point - and the reason I am hoping Job will do for my course, even though it is not in epos form - was the feeling that Job had participated in an initiation - a spiritual, "filmlike" experience of the All, a vision of the creation - not just a beautiful speech from God. As I am sure you know, experiences like that (if Job indeed portrays such an experience) are hard to put into words, and (if so,) the writer of Job does it most masterfully. (I guess the story of Lazarus could be said to be equally compelling as a spiritual vision, but it isn't also beautiful and artistic literary composition.)

Most of the scholars on Job whose work is on the net come from totally different traditions than what I had in mind; for them ideas like initiation may not be relevant or perhaps even acceptable. I would hope that your thinking doesn't find this possibility offensive! Many analyze only the language content of the book, which is of course very worthwhile! - for example, prof D Cline in England, who wrote a kind reply to my query. Surely Job could be compared to Shakespeare's plays or other masterpieces of literature, and it is a great play/drama, although I suspect a director would prefer a little more action and not so much dialogue. (Although I do wonder when Hallmark will try to do something with Job!) But as you yourself have found, in looking for understanding in the biblical texts themselves, there is a lot more to the story than the words!

Whatever you make of my approach, I hope you won't mind if I ask you to be a sounding board for an idea I had this evening. I found a site about the "lost city of Gilgal" (http://www.vendyljones.org.il/finds.htm), which this team recently found and felt to be the real Gilgal about a year ago. I am not familiar with the stories about Gilgal - it's been a long time since I read the whole Bible straight through - but on page two of the article, the author (?, haven't checked it out yet) says "However, even after Yehoshua (Joshua) camped at Gilgal with the children of Israel, Eliyahu's (Elijah's) School of the prophets was at Gilgal." This Gilgal, like the one on your map of the Kingdom of David and Solomon, is just north of the Dead Sea, or perhaps a little more northwest, at any rate, somewhat north and east of Jerusalem. And thinking about Gilgal reinforced a question I've been wondering about.

The small question that's been running through my mind is that Job is said to have been the richest man in the east, and Edom is said to be the country of the east. It seems as though Teman might be quite a bit farther east, but at any rate not farther north than Uz. The problem is, if it were an Israelite writing the story, Edom would have been to the SOUTH or at least southwest, but not to the east. Edom appears to be not east of anything except Egypt and the desert, even to someone with my poor geography. Possibly the area due east of the Dead Sea was also part of Edom (even though it's not the part where Uz (Uts) was), and so could be said to be east of, say, Be'ersheba, but that doesn't sound so likely to me. The whole area was apparently very Egyptian at the end of the Bronze age and the beginning of the Iron age. (I also found a site describing Egyptian mining (and a small Egyptian place of worship) at Timna, including iron, which is mentioned in Job.) So my question is - do you have any ideas about why Job is "of the East"? How would someone from west of Uz know about Job or YHVH, and who might have been west of Edom at the time? Whose might the perspective - captured later or simply expressed in person - be, who saw Edom to the east?

I hope I haven't taken too much of your time. If my paper were in English I would send it to you right away if it would be of any value to you (although much is uninteresting for you, since you have come to the same conclusions yourself), but it's in Swedish, so it would take more time than I have just now.

Wishing for you all the wonders of Easter (this Passover Eve) - and praying for all those affected by the wars our many peoples are waging, 'friend'

----- Original Message -----

From Robert Craig

To 'firend'

Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 2:09 AM

Subject: Thank you

I appreciate your note. Thank you for stopping by. I was just up-dating JOB when your E-mail came. Stop by often. Regards, Bob C

~Craigs On The WEB

http://craigpages3.100megsfree5.com/CraigPages.html

---

Hello!

Thank you for a fascinating site!

I am researching a paper on Job for a course at the anthroposophical seminar in Järna, Sweden. The course is called The Art of the Word - word in its ordinary and other senses.

There are many references to Job on the net, and some fascinating thoughts about when it was written and when it was composed. There are, however, many questions that leave me wondering, and one is geographical, which I thought you might have some input on.

My first question was from reading the English (Zondervan NIV) version: Job is said (in English) to be the richest man in the east, at least in the NIV 1:3 "He was the greatest man of all the peoples of the East" (NIV Study Bible, Zondervan). But how could Job's home in Edom be regarded as being in "the east" - that is, to the east of what or whom? From Israel, or from Gilgal (see below), Edom would be to the south or the southeast, but not to the east. So from whose perspective are Edom and Teman easterly? Could Edom have been east of Har Karkom (see www.harkarkom.com), before, after or at the time of Moses?

After looking at the original hebrew texts, I must admit that my question is a little less exciting, though - perhaps just a (misleading) translation choice.

In the hebrew edition (Tanach with vowels, www.sacred-text.com/bib/tv/job.htm:) it says "vayhih ha'iysh hahu' gadholmikkol-beney-quedhem" that is (in my understanding), Job is described as the biggest of all the "sons of old" or "original sons" or "sons of former [times]". According to the note in the Zondervan translation, this expression is similar to that in Genesis 29:1, translated there as "the peoples of the east.". But once again, no there is no mention of "east" (or any direction) in the hebrew text: (www.sacred-text.com )"29:1 vayyisâ' ya`aqobh raghlâyv vayyêlekh 'artsâh bhenêy-qedhem". (The Zondervan translation: "Gen 29:1 Then Jacob continued on his journey and came to the land of the eastern peoples.")! After Jacob left the Beer Sheva area on his way to Haran, it would be natural for him to take the road through Eilat and Edom, so it is understandable that he would have passed this area, and reasonable that people from Haran would be travelling the same road. But why is the English translation "the land of the East"?

Was Job, as Robert Craig reports that some have suggested, from the time of Abraham? Perhaps a relative or an ancestor?In my (small) paper, I thought about the places from which Job's friends came, thinking that they were all descendants of either Kain or non-Isaac lines stemming from Abraham. Only after reading Robert Craig's study did it occur to me that Job might have been an ancestor, rather than a descendant, of the Abraham-descendants with similar names.

I would greatly appreciate hearing if you have any thoughts about this?

Happy Easter,

'friend'

---

Hi Bob!

Thanks for your kind reply! As you will see, I have sent a copy of another query to you, having checked into the question of "the land of the east" a little more carefully. Thanks so much fo the site - it was terrific! I have been looking for a way to get the Hebrew texts with vowels for a long time, and this has been a great help!

I would rather you not link to my letter to you from the other day, since there are some fuzzy thoughts there and some information about me that I would rather keep personal. But if you want to link to the copy I sent today, that would be okay. I forgot to ask them about the Elihu connection, will send another shortly.

There are so many small details of this kind of detective work that it is easy to lose sight of the whole - but for me it's important to have as factual a basis as possible, before speculating about what things might mean. I'll be sure to check into your site now and then, and wish you peace and light at Easter.

Yours sincerely,

'friend'

----- Original Message -----
From Robert Craig
To 'friend'

Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 2:41 AM

Subject: Gilgal

Hi again!

Wow! So much to absorb. One of the things that the WWW has done is to cause me to focus. However, your E-mail really calls for complete attention. I appreciate your great scholarship and travels.

My need to focus is self imposed when I felt my memory beginning to slip. It is a struggle for me and I have to do so many things over and over, then over again. Most of my work on JOB was done in the 1970s. While I was reformatting it for HTML. Much of the work came back but some seemed to come as new -- as though it was the first time I had read it.

I read with much interest the material at (http://www.vendyljones.org.il/finds.htm), . . . and I will spend some time on it. I did a search for Gilgal and was amazed at how much I've missed concerning that area. The scriptures are most convincing for the proposal.

I shall ponder more on your letter and reply as soon as some of the fog in my mind lifts :-).

I would be delighted if you would allow me to format your E-mail in HTML and link it to the JOB study! As well, all your work fascinates me. In 1957 I had occasion to be in the Lebanon area and found passage to the area south of the Dead Sea. So many years have passed but my enthusiasm remains for the intrigue and mystery shrouded in that awesome land. While I was there much turmoil (then as now) prevented our access to places I would have loved to have visited. I was with the government at the time and I had to account for my time and travels.

Your knowledge of these things astounds me -- you have done so much work and it is obvious.

God's blessings to you.

Regards, Bob Craig

~Craigs On The WEB

http://craigpages3.100megsfree5.com/CraigPages.html

---

HI again, Bob!

Thanks for your interest. I think part of the "east" problem was just carelessness. Job is from Uz, and the NIV (Zondervan) Study Bible says Uz is more or less all of Jordan, both the southern Edom part and the northern part, so east could be east of Israel and Judah, although I was just thinking of Edom. But why the English and Swedish is translated "greatest man of the east" rather than a more literal translation "greatest of the men of old" or something like that, is beyond me.

How come you're in need of pillows and being so far from the screen? Sounds as if you might be experiencing something along the lines of Job yourself? Sounds like you're dealing with the situation in good spirits?

My next (last for the paper) quest is about the meaning of Behemoth and Leviatan. Will be looking in Canaanite and other Near Eastern creation myths, as the Zondervan Study Bible suggests that Leviathan is a well-known concept there, and I have some ideas of my own. After that I will be rounding off. The paper was supposed to be finished by Easter, and since we have "2nd day Easter" as a holiday in Sweden, I guess I can stretch it another day...

A thought that I will be adding to the paper - The Zondervan NIV translates "the Satan" as "the accuser", noting that Satan doesn't become a proper name (that is, lose the "the") until the new testament. This adds an aspect in my mind to Jesus' admonition not to judge, that is, not to have accusation as a strategy for solving problems, but to try to find another way.

Came back from an afternoon on the coastal rocks today, with my family. No fish, but lots of fresh air and sunshine. Warm temperatures for Sweden, almost 15 C!

Did I send you the Dinur site address? http://www.hum.huji.ac.il/dinur/links/Archaeology.htm

Just now I couldn't reach the server for some reason, but the Italian team's Har Karkom site there is fascinating, as well as many of the others.

Must continue now for a while. My family is not too thrilled about me being glued to the computer...
'friend'

----- Original Message -----
From Robert Craig
To 'friend'
Sent Saturday, April 19, 2003 8:50 PM
Subject Re Job's origin

Hi

I find this fascinating! -- but a bit troublesome. You have raised some very interesting questions that were not covered in the "JOB" study. I had a great time re-reading my work with an ear to your very interesting observations and questions. Unfortunately I have not yet come up with anything that would satisfy you or myself in a way of a reasonable solution to this "East" mystery. I shall not be hindered however and will continue to look for satisfaction for us both. If you come up with anything I would be so indebted for your input.

I am of the understanding that the text "In this E-mail" is what your would allow me to post. My reason for posting -- or attaching it is that several of our sources keep up with what we are doing and having your query posted may bring us answers.

I spent an evening doing searches at this link of Sacred Texts for Job & associations. Much said about Ur but I was not able to find Gilgal -- a bit frustrating.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/bct/index.htm

Book of the Cave of Treasurers

It may well be that the following quote from the ABSTRACT of our study: http://craig_pages.tripod.com/Bible_Study/Revelation/job1.htm may well explain the difficulty.

Bible translators are in agreement that the Book of Job is the most difficult of all the Old Testament books to translate. The reasons seem to be twofold. First, the language of Elihu was put into modern Hebrew poetry form by the Masoretes. This incomparable Masoretic Text has been the object of scorn by ‘scholars,’ especially the liberal theologians since before the turn of the century. It became their joy to correct any passage that they could not understand by saying that it was corrupt. By re-writing the Masoretic Text, however, they did not solve the problems, but rather created new ones. All they succeeded in doing was to cover up the evidence of the truth.

Thank you for giving a man that feels older than his age something to think and work on. You may have had some difficulty with the large print I have used in formatting the document. I have done this so as to make it easier to read for us old guys. Earlier small print caused one friend of mine great difficulty. Now, as the pain I experience at sitting, I too can appreciate it being large. I have half way lean back on pillows and this causes me to be about 4 foot away from the screen -- thus, the large size can be read quite well.

Blessings because of Easter!

Bob Craig

~~Craigs on the Web
http://craigpages3.100megsfree5.com/CraigPages.html

----- Original Message -----
From 'friend'
To Cc: Robert Craig
Sent Saturday, April 19, 2003 11:57 AM
Subject Job's origin

Hello!

Thank you for a fascinating site!

I am researching a paper on Job for a course at the anthroposophical seminar in Järna, Sweden. The course is called The Art of the Word - word in its ordinary and other senses.

There are many references to Job on the net, and some fascinating thoughts about when it was written and when it was composed. There are, however, many questions that leave me wondering, and one is geographical, which I thought you might have some input on.

My first question was from reading the English (Zondervan NIV) version: Job is said (in English) to be the richest man in the east, at least in the NIV 1:3 "He was the greatest man of all the peoples of the East" (NIV Study Bible, Zondervan). But how could Job's home in Edom be regarded as being in "the east" - that is, to the east of what or whom? From Israel, or from Gilgal (see below), Edom would be to the south or the southeast, but not to the east. So from whose perspective are Edom and Teman easterly? Could Edom have been east of Har Karkom (see www.harkarkom.com), before, after or at the time of Moses?

After looking at the original hebrew texts, I must admit that my question is a little less exciting, though - perhaps just a (misleading) translation choice.

In the hebrew edition (Tanach with vowels, www.sacred-text.com/bib/tv/job.htm:) it says "vayhih ha'iysh hahu' gadholmikkol-beney-quedhem" that is (in my understanding), Job is described as the biggest of all the "sons of old" or "original sons" or "sons of former [times]". According to the note in the Zondervan translation, this expression is similar to that in Genesis 29:1, translated there as "the peoples of the east.". But once again, no there is no mention of "east" (or any direction) in the hebrew text: (www.sacred-text.com )"29:1 vayyisâ' ya`aqobh raghlâyv vayyêlekh 'artsâh bhenêy-qedhem". (The Zondervan translation: "Gen 29:1 Then Jacob continued on his journey and came to the land of the eastern peoples.")! After Jacob left the Beer Sheva area on his way to Haran, it would be natural for him to take the road through Eilat and Edom, so it is understandable that he would have passed this area, and reasonable that people from Haran would be travelling the same road. But why is the English translation "the land of the East"?

Was Job, as Robert Craig reports that some have suggested, from the time of Abraham? Perhaps a relative or an ancestor?In my (small) paper, I thought about the places from which Job's friends came, thinking that they were all descendants of either Kain or non-Isaac lines stemming from Abraham. Only after reading Robert Craig's study did it occur to me that Job might have been an ancestor, rather than a descendant, of the Abraham-descendants with similar names.

I would greatly appreciate hearing if you have any thoughts about this?
Happy Easter,
'friend'

---

Dear Bob,

Warning - this turned out to be a terribly long letter!

I imagine (hope) you are sleeping right now, as I believe it's the middle of the night in your part of the world, since it's noon here. Here it's almost summer temperatures and sunny, although there is frost at night and a couple of weeks ago it snowed.

I am writing this with bigger letters (18 point), although I don't think even these are big enough to read at 4 feet. I imagine you fix that yourself, but it is much easier on the eyes to read these larger letters, thanks for that! But I will zap it back to smaller text before I send it, so it doesn't take so long for you to receive it. Sorry to hear about your back, I wish you courage, wisdom, company and the Lord's blessings as you deal with that.

As for Alzheimer's - I have worked with people dealing with that disease, both from the patient and relative perspectives and from the caretaker's and researcher's viewpoints. I imagine you were joking, since you would not be able to formulate what you have written, or read so much, or think the way you do, if you had Alzheimer's disease. Old age may ordinarily include memory problems, but not Alzheimer's. However, some memory problems are connected to what is called pseudo-demens, a form of depression, so if it wasn't a joke, and you are experiencing problems, I hope you talk to someone about it!

Otherwise, I think from my personal experience that old age brings definite changes in memory functions, which are not just a question of deterioration, but I don't have time to talk any more about that today. How old ARE you, anyway, if I may ask? I'm 54.

Thanks for the link to the Kabbala site. I am getting a little tired now. My paper is due by the end of the day, and the last "simple" question is a very large bottle of worms. My questions about Leviathan and Behemot on the net have led me to Satanistic websites, and you name it, and I don't feel very comfortable browsing through those sites. Of course the problem of evil is an important part of our times, and perhaps always has been, so how I ever imagined I could deal with that topic in a short time, I have no idea, but it is somewhat overwhelming. I decided to leave the issue of the nature of Leviathan and Behemot. Although if I had more time, I'm sure I would find that these names and concepts were rather easier to understand in Job's or the author's time than they are now. That's probably good, though, since we have to think about them in a different way when we don't think we know everything about them already.

As an exercise, I thought I would write my thoughts today in English, before I write them in my paper (which is in Swedish). That way I can share them with you without having to translate the paper into English afterwards. (But none of this should be linked to, on the net, since they are just thoughts, and not finished in any way. And especially, since I feel a need to give great consideration to the possible consequences of what is written for any and all to read.) Some of them are anthroposophical in origin (that is, from the writings and life of Rudolf Steiner, the Austrian founder of Waldorf education, biodynamic agriculture and many other cultural/spiritual activities and ideas), but I have tried to rely on my own understanding, as you have, rather than collect a bunch of quotations or piece together fragments of others' thoughts. Still I try to give credit where credit is due, not because anyone can own ideas, but out of respect for the reader (who might want to check if I understood what the other fellow was saying) and for history, who might want to examine what we knew at one time and what we were blind to.

The link you sent me to, helped me formulate one of the thoughts I woke up with this morning. It has been trying to express itself for a long time, but perhaps you and the Kabbala fellow helped it get some form. (I linked to a more genereal Kabbala site from the one you sent.) The thought is that if Job indeed experienced a mystical initiation, a crossing over into the spiritual world without dying first, then his illness must have had a lot to do with it. The Kabbala passage I happened to read talked about a hypothetical situation of God giving a man vast riches, which he wasn't able to use. The rabbi (in the Kabbala passage) concluded then that God didn't actually give him anything at all, in that situation, since the man wouldn't be able to use the gifts. And then he went on to other thoughts.

(By the way, perhaps you already know that traditionally, in order to begin study Kabbala, one is/was required to be at least 42 years old and have had a family with children, that is, have been a father. People don't take these things very seriously any more, but I am sure that you can see how a man of 42 with children has a different state of consciousness and moral responsibility than a 21-year-old university student... As to limiting the study of the Kabbala to men, well, that's another story...)

But I think there is more to the rich man scenario than the rabbi spoke of. On the one hand, when everything was taken from Job, the only thing he continued to miss was the respect of his fellows. He accepted the loss of his possessions and his family with grief (his first period of mourning) but without complaint. But when he looked back over his life (by the way, after the seven days of his second period of mourning, a "funeral wake" for himself with his silent friends), what really got to him was his memories of having been respected in the square, having been (or perhpas having others be) aware of his good deeds. That's the only vestige I could find of egotism left in Job (although I'll have to check it out more carefully before I start writing), and after a while, he gives that up, too.

In descriptions of ancient initiations, for example in Egypt, the initiate went through a process similar to dying, a three-day procedure in which the candidate for initiation had to live through experiences that he would not have been able to survive without the help of his supervisor. He had trained for years and years to be able to maintain his consciousness, although in an unordinary form, throughout the experience. To the outside world it would appear that he had died, and that he was "resurrected" after the three days, but actually the procedure made it possible for him to be alive in a different state of consciousness. In a word, he went to hell and to heaven and back. If he survived the ordeal (which apparently not everyone did), he was then an Initiate, and he would be able to learn how to supervise others through this procedure. On the way, he received unspeakable knowledge: that is, an understanding of the spiritual world, its realities and laws, which was difficult, if not impossible, to put into words. Probably many (or all) early Pharaos went through such procedures, and many others.

Dantes Inferno gives an idea of what part of the experience might be like, and I think Job gives the "good" part, what happens after the "return" from the hellish experience. I think this was possible because Job, through his illness, had already gone through the purifying experience of "hell". He became purified, that is, he lost everything that binds a person to his earthly life and a particular earthlife identity. Yet he did not die, and despite losing almost all his physical and social functions, he still retained his connection with God and a sense of himself and his connection with everyday consciousness.

But even Job does not just see the beauty of the created world during this procedure. He must also look the beasts in the eye. He must accept the "evil" creations of God, have respect for their greatness, and - this is of course my speculation - understand (without protesting this either) that they are part of the creation. Job realizes (and apparently accepts) during the experience that they also have a role to play. Testing the spirits would make no sense if they were all good guys. But a real testing of the spirits requires a moral stature of such dimensions that most people would simply not be able live through it on their own. Hence the "fear" of God and the wonder of Moses' experience, despite the unimaginable proportions of actually being "face to face" with God himself. Therefore, they need a guide, a supervisor, a help along the way, a Christ. A being of such moral stature that He could be a bridge even for ordinary people to be received into the kingdom of heaven, without dying in the process, having conquered death. The kingdom within us. The spiritual world, with its different, non-physical laws and realities.

Could it be that Job recognized Leviathan - a symbol of chaos and disorder in Canaanite and near eastern mythology, according to the Zondervan NIV - and Behemoth - the male counterpart of the female Leviathan - because of his illness?

Well, Robert, that's it for today. I hope my thinking has not offended you in any way, and I would be delighted to hear your thoughts on these thoughts, too. Actually, what I have written today - with your help, thanks! - is the essence of the reason for writing the paper in the first place, all the rest was preparation. I do especially thank you for being there, so I didn't get sidetracked by those Satanistic home pages!

If there is any truth to what I have written, all the scholarly studies in the world can only have the purpose of showing the way, enticing our interest in the right (or wrong) direction. In the end, each person must choose his own experience, walk his own bridge toward the kingdom within. But for those of us who are not so brave, it is perhaps helpful to hear that others have gone before and not given up.

Yes, I got carried away with my own thoughts, too. So here are some responses: You wrote

"This quote from your E-mail to me (Note the link at the top of the page) seemed to reflect some of the understanding of the author. As you can determine by reading my work from the late 1960-1970's, I have a rather simplified understanding (by simple faith) of the Bible. When it comes to Satan, I have felt his influence on my life, as well as my sustained belief in Jesus Christ. I was brought up that way, a rather (soft) fundamentalist influenced awareness of myself and my faith. As years went on and I studied at Duke my horizons were raised a bit. However, just like Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary came to a more liberal theological bent, -- today, under their present leadership, have returned to a more conservative and literal belief in the scriptures. After I was retired from the United Methodist Church and began to understand myself as an ageing person I find my old belief system returning. It is quite possible that if I were to have stayed with the Southern Baptist Convention as a minister I would have still been preaching today. My faith was destroyed to some degree (tainted) by the studies at Duke and the philosophy in the UM Church. I am convinced that this was what brought me down health wise as well as spiritual.

So many things in the Bible can be discussed and even doubted . . . however, it all comes down to one's faith. The link at the top of this page describes a person searching for something and thinking he/she has found it. I don't know about you, but my understanding of his (the link) Old Testament theology places everything on the back of 'self.' I completely believe in personal responsibility. However, recalling the story of Moses and the burning bush -- it was when Moses replied back to God, "who am I . . ", that was when God informed, when you study the passage, Moses that it really didn't have anything to do with Moses (I) but everything to do with God. It is God that found Moses and attracted him to God -- not the other way around."

Well, there's enought there to write for another hour or two, but I'll try to be short. I understand the problem of dealing with religious thinking in an everyday context. I have had my share of church conflicts and cultural battles within the churches. I know the dichotomy of a "simple" understanding of the Bible and the "wordy" theological discussions that seem to capture the minds of so many academics. That's why I felt more comfortable with an anthroposophical view.

I love the link of the fellow (Vendyl Jones, http://www.vendyljones.org.il/) who went to Isreal with his family and started taking the scriptures more literally and seriously and look for archaelogical evidence to help sift out the language/reality issues. This is to me the challenge of our times, to use our minds and technologies to understand the deeper meanings of the scriptures. And as we take the scriptures seriously, and expose them to intellectual scrutiny, it is important to give them more credit than the academics seem willing to do. I don't believe for a moment that anyone writing the scriptures would have been careless or casual about what they were writing. But at the same time, if they were trying to write about a world that is totally different from the one we are used to seeing and breathing in, it wasn't all that easy to be clear in every detail.

Besides, communication is always a two- (or multi-) way street, so the understanding of the reader/listener is just as important as the skill of the speaker/writer. I think they did amazingly well, considering all the difficulties! But if we as readers are to take our task seriously, we have to keep on trying to understand with all our faculties, despite the difficulty. And it should be easier, the more we know about the ways of thinking and the physical realities of the times in which the scriptures were written. (I can't help thinking, also, that there is a reason that Qumran and other terribly important aids to this are turning up just now...)

So in summary, I believe it is important to take the Bible (and most other world scriptures, I must add) very literally, but with a deep respect for the limitations of language and written communication. I believe it is possible, and necessary, to try to achieve one's own spiritual experiences and thereby to "test the spirits", with all the responsibility and hard work that that might entail, including meditation and prayer. That said, I must admit that I myself am woefully unsuccessful at this enterprise, so I hope I live a long time, and can get better!

Now as I reread this (unpardonably long!) letter, I realized that you have helped me in another, perphaps even more important way. I have been trying for the past year or so to begin to really understand the "purpose," if you will, of getting old. I work with brave stroke patients who have lost considerable parts of their ability to use language, most of them are from 55-75 years old, a few are a little older. My mother is 82, and quite thin, has difficulty walking and lives alone about 7 hours from here by car, having moved to Sweden when she was 70 years old. She has no close friends here, and greatly misses talking politics and religion with her old cronies, one of whom is dead and the others live in the US. She has been so disillusioned by her strict Lutheran upbringing that she has more or less decided God is a creep, and religion is all lies, and religious people are phonies. I am dangerously close to being included in that group... Two of her children, including me, visit when we can, sometimes only 2-3 times a year for a few days to a week or so. So the experience of getting older is always on my mind. If the experience of Job is about reaching the spiritual world, then perhaps there is a holy purpose connected with the successive loss of faculties and friends that old age can and usually does bring. I will have to think about this for a longer time, but I would appreciate hearing your thoughts about this most of all.

Thank you for reading this far - if you actually have been able to hang in there so long!
Best wishes,

'friend'

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